This is from “Brave New World”, which I’ve never read before. This made me think of all of the hysteria that is going on over masks and vaccines. I believe this passage to be very accurate because I do think that some people actually mean well but they can’t see how badly they behave because of their well meaning intentions.

I’m almost done reading this book. I don’t think I like it as much as I like “1984” but it’s creepy for sure.

@DameAshley

if you thought COVID19 was much more deadly in some way, would you be supportive of masks and vaccines?

@wjmaggos

I don’t deal in “what if’s”. I don’t know how or why anyone lives their life that way. I’ll leave that to all the people who enjoy spending their time thinking about all of the ways things can go wrong instead of living their lives to the fullest.

@DameAshley

it's not about what could go wrong. it's about understanding other people and ourselves better. it's about recognizing that our understanding of what's true changes over time. it's necessary to living our lives to the fullest when there are people around who disagree with you but will nevertheless impact your life but you can't kill them.

@wjmaggos Do you believe that someone not wearing a mask or getting a vaccine will kill you?

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@DameAshley

That's not what I was referring to, but I think masks decrease transmission and other vaccines prevent other diseases. So while I don't think I would be one of the tiny percentage to die from COVID if I got it, I do think those precautions do help prevent some people from dying. Now will you answer my question?

@wjmaggos why? What do you care what I think? I laid out my points about why I think this passage from BNW is relevant to people who are well meaning. That was really all I set out to do. After all I don’t be in the middle of raging mask debate.

@DameAshley

Because I think you're well meaning too & social media gives us the power to shape understanding unlike ever before. It actually matters what we say and share and challenge. Not that I'm right and you're wrong but we apparently have a difference of opinion and so should be able to learn from each other etc. What's the way out of well meaning people doing damage unless we speak up? I'm a big fan of NA in that they challenge media narratives but we can't let it become its own gospel.

@wjmaggos Ok,well then I suppose my answer would be that IF COVID-19 was deadly in some way to myself or my family I would take the necessary precautions to keep them safe. I would not, however, force other people to behave the way I wanted them to just because I was afraid for myself or my family. This is where the crux of the issue is for me...I’m expected to care about strangers. Well, I’m sorry, I don’t, and if everyone was very honest with themselves they would admit that they don’t either.

@wjmaggos Not because they are bad people, but because we are not wired to care about people outside of our circle. So, to me the person screaming at someone to wear a mask doesn’t give a shit about the person without a mask on at all. They really just care how they look to other people. (I believe that’s called virtue signaling. )

@wjmaggos Because if someone ever did scream at me for not wearing a mask (hasn’t happened yet, because I don’t go anywhere that forces me to wear one) I wonder if they would REALLY care why I can’t.

Of course I am not saying that everyone is a crazy mask Nazi. I think people are afraid and I think when you’re afraid you can convince yourself of pretty much anything. I know that for a fact.

Sorry, my answer was too long so I split it up into 3 posts. I’m done now. Lol

@DameAshley

I think we do all generally care about all other humans too (but that definitely increases with blood/familiarity too). It's what makes open societies possible, how nonviolent protest works, why nations need to dehumanize enemies during war & part of why soldiers get PTSD.

While I agree there's lots of mask virtue signaling going on (combined with MSM confusion), viruses are like pollution decades ago. It's hard to accept that we're causing problems for others by living "normally".

@wjmaggos I didn’t say people don’t “generally” care about others. I just don’t believe that people genuinely care about other people as much as they do for their own people. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

What problem does someone who is not wearing a mask or getting a vaccine cause anyone else? Are you really trying to equate this virus (with a recovery rate of 99.95% survival rate) to pollution? Seems like a false equivalency to me.

@DameAshley

my point with pollution is it's amorphous & hard to connect our small action w/ contributing to a greater good. while it's unrealistic, 100% distancing by everyone in the world for a month would eliminate the virus. masks help but I don't think being a jerk about them is good. maybe a better comparison to Rona life is driving. it kills people but since it's still worth doing for a bunch of good reasons, we try to follow some rules to minimize negative impact. and enforcement sucks.

@wjmaggos Well I don’t follow your logic, at all. lol. But I’m okay with not agreeing with you. Perhaps I should pose your original question to me on No Agenda social? Maybe you will get responses that are more to your liking? 😜

@DameAshley

You follow the logic of us all being part of spreading the virus if we don't take precautions like social distancing, wearing masks etc, right?

@wjmaggos

I understand that YOU believe wholeheartedly in what you’re saying and that it makes sense to you. I am saying that I think it’s ridiculous to try to compare this situation to pollution.

And, just as I “understand” that during flu season I might be more susceptible to becoming sick, I understand that COVID-19 is a real thing. (ie.people have died from it and recovered from it too) I just don’t think I have to turn my life upside down because some people are freaked out about it.

@wjmaggos
< You follow the logic of us all being part of spreading the virus if we don't take precautions like social distancing, wearing masks etc, right?

I don't. I take the view that the virus spreads itself. How does the saying in Jurassic Park go? "Life finds a way".

If people are concerned for their health due to a biological agent, they're free to wear MOPP suits. They're not that expensive! Here's a link: https://www.grainger.com/product/492A66?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr9ufmr-n6wIVBK7ICh2ECgRwEAQYAiABEgKDvvD_BwE&cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&ef_id=EAIaIQobChMIr9ufmr-n6wIVBK7ICh2ECgRwEAQYAiABEgKDvvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!281698276011!!!g!471328313888!

@DameAshley

@bigl0af Thank you. I’m sure @wjmaggos will appreciate someone else disagreeing with him. I think I was starting to bore him with my opinions. 😂

@bigl0af @wjmaggos @DameAshley

>Ships from supplier. Expected to arrive by end of Jan, 2021.

lol it would still be cool to have one, i looked at a level A suit and a trainer version was more expensive than this mopp suit, so good buy for sure. plus you can mock your neighbors and what not, carry a rifle as well, just for added lols

@mrmcmayhem
Lol for real! I really reject the notion that your mere existence is an assault on others. It flies in the face of individual freedom and autonomy. You certainly are free to take whatever precautions you see fit. You can live in the wilderness, walk around in mopp gear, whatever. But when you force people to do things they don't want to do, as if you own their person, there's a word for that - slavery.
@wjmaggos @DameAshley

@bigl0af @wjmaggos @DameAshley

if someone's concerned about their personal safety, they should address their personal safety. i'm not part of that equation.

i think we've discussed before how this whole thing has given people license to be rude to fellow citizens and act as if they have authority to do so, all while projecting some standards that are uninformed and fear based at best, all while they scream the science is settled and their word is gospel. lol unaware but fervent cult members

@mrmcmayhem
@bigl0af @DameAshley

The science is not settled. I don't support being rude. And if there was a way life could go back to normal and those concerned about COVID for themselves and their family could just protect themselves with a mask etc, I'd be all for it. But that's not possible, and collectively distancing can reduce the prevalence of the virus in the society. Urging collective action in the short-term has long-term benefits for everyone.

@wjmaggos @bigl0af @DameAshley

oh i'm not accusing you of being in the cult or being rude, just saying my boots on the ground 1st hand knowledge says people think its ok to be dicks over this mask bullshit because draconian jerk offs on their national news do it

the abusers are being mirrored by those claiming to be regular people

>collective action in the short term

you may want to revist socialists lbj and fdr's contributions to our fukt up country

@wjmaggos @bigl0af
I’m glad to hear that you don’t think the science on masks is settled. Also, it’s great that you don’t support people being rude. But so far I feel like you’re still thinking (while being well meaning) that I should wear a mask to protect you. What I do with my body should be MY choice. And that choice being taken from me (again) is causing me a lot of stress. Not that I expect you to care. That’s the difference,I don’t expect you to do anything for me.

@bigl0af
@DameAshley @mrmcmayhem

It's not slavery to have to do things when we live near each other because we can impact each other negatively, completely unintentionally. Driving kills but there's value and freedom in it so we don't outlaw it, we regulate it.

But if you actually don't think anything we do can slow the spread, I understand why this would all seem useless. That's why I asked my first question of the Dame. And it seems like you two disagree on that.

@bigl0af @DameAshley @mrmcmayhem

Which is another problem I'm having. It's like the JFK conspiracy theorists, which I guess I am one. Some of them strongly believe in theories that conflict with each other, but they don't argue with each other. Somehow they're all happily in the same camp, in opposition to the official story. Baptists vs Catholics vs Muslims vs Atheists.

@wjmaggos @bigl0af @DameAshley

mandatory undeclared medical marshal law isn't an option or justification

and just because loaf and and i dont agree on the finer points doesn't mean i wouldn't lock and load to go defend his freedom just as i'm sure he'd do the same

freedom is not negotiable
the constitution is not negotiable
and i will not negotiate with terrorists and insurrectionists who probe and push at various vectors to undermine my sovereign claim and god given rights

@wjmaggos @bigl0af @DameAshley

bottom line, people dying from a flu past the expiration age of the typical life span, are over privileged and we dont need to protect those who are so soft and weak they die from this, sorry if that's harsh but its how it is. 90 year old grandma has had a life, lets not take time from those who aren't shut away in facilities barely clinging to life as it is.

actually i'm not sorry if that's harsh, society and the west are weak

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@wjmaggos @bigl0af @mrmcmayhem I don’t see where @bigl0af and I disagree on this? If I disagreed with him, he would know. Lol

@wjmaggos
< It's not slavery to have to do things when we live near each other because we can impact each other negatively, completely unintentionally.

If you use force or threat of force to get people to do something, that's slavery - period. Doesn't matter if you're making them pick cotton or wear a mask.

@DameAshley @mrmcmayhem

@bigl0af @DameAshley @mrmcmayhem

Assuming we're neighbors, are you cool with me keeping a house full of ammonium nitrate on my property?

@wjmaggos @bigl0af @DameAshley

sure because why would i care what you do with fertilizer?

because if you're thinking i'll bite as if ammonium nitrate is anfo then bark up another tree

now if the community had a problem you'd have to go, you dont want to be anti democratic do you? that's a bit against the N.A.P. isn't it if the community said it was a problem.

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@bigl0af @wjmaggos Yes! Thank you. My original point was that people can wrap up their well meaning intentions about how masks and vaccines save people’s lives all they want, but they don’t realize that they are behaving like crazy people who don’t actually care about people. If you care about others why would you force them to protect you?
This is actually why I didn’t want to answer the hypothetical question. I don’t believe the premise that it’s is deadly. Not any more so than the flu.

@DameAshley @bigl0af @wjmaggos
And applying the label "asymptomatic" to people who aren't sick, and then because you've applied that label to them deciding you get to force them to do something to "protect" you, is the worst form of crazy. You might as well start throwing virgins into volcanoes at that point.

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@wjmaggos Additionally, the whole mask idea is predicated on the notion that I HAVE to wear one to make YOU safe and it assumes that no one will want to be labeled a dick who doesn’t care about other people. Now everyone who wears one can feel like they are doing their part,right? It’s like the equivalent of posting a black square to show that you care about BLM. It’s bullshit. And I’m too old for bullshit. Lol.

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