loves the year 1776. I think that's supposed to make the case for violent revolution when liberty & American values are being suppressed. Maybe the left should respond with 1859, when religiously inspired John Brown tried to initiate a slave revolt.

@wjmaggos ppl would use "John Brown" as a swear word. General Lee put down the revolt.

@neanderthalsnavel @wjmaggos Why would people use it as a swear word? Because he failed? That doesn’t make sense.

@wjmaggos But who are the Brownites trying to liberate? Almost any modern comparison seems like a farce compared to chattel slavery.


But doesn't bringing up 1859 show some of the failures of 1776? Perhaps that profit perverts even the grandest ideals. That we must always expand who is considered part of the polity. Which framework is more relevant to thinking about US foreign policy making the world play by our market rules, and how that might come back to bite us?


1619 is full of bs. The US had slavery but it's not the founding concept. I think much of what people identify with 1776 is good but it also had to be improved upon. Just as the revolution can be seen as a justified response to injustice, so can 1859. "Fuck you, it's so unfair, violence is necessary". But also, we shouldn't make that decision lightly. And while both years didn't mark the founding of new rules, they led directly to them.

@wjmaggos I mean...Brown's revolt failed. He was executed by the state? I don't think this works just from an optics POV.

@wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp The 1619 project has a purpose- to deflect blame for the people who were actually responsible for slavery.

@wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp I disagree that there was any *failure* of 1776. But we disagree about everything. We know that. There is always room for improvement, and that's why the system allows for amendments that ALL states must ratify. In 1859, except for Brown, the abolitionists, and the slaves, that was an uprising of property, which wokesters today don't allow us to discuss, because it hurts ppl's feelings. They'd rather not learn from it.


treating them like property was not a failure of 1776? I'd like to discuss that.

@wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp you leftists LOVE the retroactive b.s. The Declaration of Independence is a crown jewel of Western enlightenment, liberty, and self govt TO THAT POINT and stands as a crown jewel now. 2nd only to the Magna Carta. Yes the Constitution left slavery in, which was remediated in 1865 with the loss of 655,000 whites arguing about it. Their lives paid that debt.


why do you rightists need to WORSHIP everything? everything is flawed, that doesn't mean it's not awesome. I'm not interested in blame or debt. can't we just see life as complicated with changing perspectives and full of compromises? honestly, that's what this leftist wants to do.

@wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp What you call complications, I call 'edge cases'. If a set of rules works for MOST of the cases, it shouldn't be substantively changed for the sake of the edge cases. We live in a world where changing perspectives are retroactively applied to history to judge it. History MUST also be understood in the context of its time & THAT perspective to understand why it happened. I only worship God the Father, Son, Holy Ghost. I applaud The Founders for job well done.


I agree with you about history and context. We disagree on edge cases. Some rule change could make a huge positive change for a very small group of people. At huge or maybe negligible cost to others. Never a clear answer, only good faith dialogue and democracy. Complicated.

@wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp Yeah - I cannot read or hear the word 'Democracy' anymore without immediately parsing it as 'mob rule'.

@neanderthalsnavel @wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp It's funny the abolitionist pretty much stoked the flames of paranoia of Southerners because a lot of their tactics were very similar to the Woke today. I would read the book "Holy Warriors" it details some of those who were the major players in the abolitionist movement and how you can tell none of them had any idea their actions were integral in starting 1859.

@whowhat @wjmaggos @Johnny_of_the_swamp The abolitionists' vindictive approach to Reconstruction didn't even try to heal the wounds. They wanted a further pound of flesh and impeached Johnson when he wouldn't do it.

@wjmaggos we need to also remember 1861, the birth of our monstrous Federal Govt that imposes it's will, be force, on those that disagree with it. And has been known to slaughter ~325000 of them in a four year span. And that just with the rifles and cannon.

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